The Handloaders Bench Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register

Welcome to HandloadersBench.com. Our mission here is to provide a place for those interested in the hobby of Reloading Ammunition. We offer a series of forums where they can ask questions, share answers, and highlight successes & failures so that others can learn. If you join our site please be aware that front porch rules apply. If you wouldn't say it on your front porch with grandma, your pastor and your 12 year old niece present it doesn't belong here. The Golden Rule applies. If you can live within those guidelines, Welcome Aboard! Spammers, trolls, and flamers will not last long here, your time would be better spent looking for a board where those traits are acceptable. HB Administration

Bullet Pointing Dies
 Moderated by: WildBill Page:    1  2  Next Page Last Page  
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rating:  Rating
AuthorPost
 Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2014 08:02 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
1st Post
SavageShooter



Joined: Mon Feb 15th, 2010
Location: Suburb Of KC, Missouri USA
Posts: 5852
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: Improved Chamberings
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

I just bit the bullet "so to speak" and purchased this bullet pointing system from Whidden Gunworks.

Since I do a lot of long range shooting, it's been eating at me to see if I can improve my bullets. Granted, first step would probably be to stop buying Blems from the Sierra outlet, but that's not going to happen with the quantity of bullets I go through. So the next step was to uniform them all to get them...well, more uniform.

In comes this new die and meplat trimmer. I'm going to be working with 6mm and 6.5mm to start. Figure 107gr SMK's and 140gr SMK's for each caliber class. Since most issues with the blems I get are mostly meplat related, I'm hoping I can turn factory seconds into factory firsts.

To test to see if this works and is worth the effort, I'm thinking I'll make up two batches of ammunition. For example, I'll work up 20 rounds of the 6.5 mm with all meplats trimmed and pointed and 20 rounds of just trimmed meplats and another 20 rounds of straight up blems. And I'll rotate between 3 targets with 5 shot strings in each target and measuring the performance. I'm also thinking that I have to be at least 500 yards or greater to really see any performance difference between them.

Here is where I'd like some others thoughts on this. Especially you Bret, I know we've had side conversations about this on and off for several months now. So I really want your input if you don't mind.

Thanks



____________________
“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”
― Ronald Reagan


 Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2014 08:49 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
2nd Post
Ruffian
Senior Member


Joined: Wed Feb 19th, 2014
Location: Rockland County NY
Posts: 3961
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: 6mm&25-06AI 40&460S&W 7mm,280 Rem,300&30-378 Wby,6.5x47& 338 Lapua Mag,6mmPPC & wildcats
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

      Seen that kit in Sinclairs / brownells web & catalogue looked at it never bit the bullet...interested if it makes a big difference of not.....see ifs its worth the effort !!!!!   Hope it works out for you. Keep us posted !!!!



____________________
Tight Lines / Shoot Often
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
Friends of the FORTY FIVE

RUFFIAN




 Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2014 10:09 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
3rd Post
BW64
Full Member


Joined: Sat Jan 29th, 2011
Location: Nevada USA
Posts: 345
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: 9mm & .308
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

OK Savageshooter. My shooting buddy purchased the same setup. I did a test with 175 SMK 20 rounds of pointed & 20 of non pointed. I have to say honestly I found a little difference out to 1000 yards. He's going to try the test with his 6BR next week. I'll keep you posted. Got another match this Sat. maybe I can do better than last month. :)

BW



____________________
BW


 Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2014 10:15 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
4th Post
SavageShooter



Joined: Mon Feb 15th, 2010
Location: Suburb Of KC, Missouri USA
Posts: 5852
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: Improved Chamberings
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

BW64,

Not what I want to hear!!! :wink:

No, I wondered this myself. But since I was shooting factory seconds, I figured it had to help some. Since most of the SMK's that I get from Sierra have messed up meplats. Please let me know what you/he finds out.



____________________
“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”
― Ronald Reagan


 Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2014 03:48 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
5th Post
BW64
Full Member


Joined: Sat Jan 29th, 2011
Location: Nevada USA
Posts: 345
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: 9mm & .308
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

It does help some. But unless you're trying to shoot hairs off a gnat's azz at 1000 I wouldn't even bother pointing. The factory bullets when sorted & weighed work fine for me with 12" x 24" targets. Now maybe with your blems you might get better results. Sorry to burst your bubble. :)

BW



____________________
BW


 Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2014 04:10 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
6th Post
swampshooter

 

Joined: Sun Aug 3rd, 2008
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 7073
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: .204, 284, 7RM, 30/06
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

One of my shooting buds back home shoots a 6xc in high power competition. He's a high master shooter. He's been pointing 107 Sierras and reports 15" less drop at 1,000 yards. An F-Class shooting buddy reports much less drop and much improved accuracy at 1,000 yds. out of his 284 shooting 180 Berger Hybrids although he didn't make any precise measurements or at least didn't share them with me. The dies are my next purchase. F-Class shooters are also reporting noticeably less wind deflection due to the increased BC. I'm going to point 7mm 180 Sierra MK's, let me know how it works out for you Carl.



____________________
NRA Endowment member
NRA Range Technical Team Advisor
TSRA member
NRA certified pistol coach-Retired
NRA classified Master, F-Class mid-range
Velocity is like a new car, always losing value
BC is like diamonds, maintaining value forever


 Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2014 10:56 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
7th Post
SavageShooter



Joined: Mon Feb 15th, 2010
Location: Suburb Of KC, Missouri USA
Posts: 5852
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: Improved Chamberings
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Well, my first thoughts are that trimming meplats suck. It's worse that trimming brass.

I'm thinking some 220 grit sandpaper will work as well as a trimmer, but here is the difference between a 6mm 107gr SMK. Before & After


Oh, the bullet pointing die will work on soft lead tipped hunting bullets as well. In case anyone cared...

Attachment: IMG_1331.JPG (Downloaded 97 times)

Last edited on Fri Mar 7th, 2014 10:59 PM by SavageShooter



____________________
“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”
― Ronald Reagan


 Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2014 12:22 AM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
8th Post
Ruffian
Senior Member


Joined: Wed Feb 19th, 2014
Location: Rockland County NY
Posts: 3961
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: 6mm&25-06AI 40&460S&W 7mm,280 Rem,300&30-378 Wby,6.5x47& 338 Lapua Mag,6mmPPC & wildcats
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

How long is it taking to do a single round ??How much material is being removed ? What weight change is there ? it only does the tip ??



____________________
Tight Lines / Shoot Often
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
Friends of the FORTY FIVE

RUFFIAN




 Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2014 01:47 AM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
9th Post
SavageShooter



Joined: Mon Feb 15th, 2010
Location: Suburb Of KC, Missouri USA
Posts: 5852
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: Improved Chamberings
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Took about 5 minutes to setup the die since it was the first time doing it. I figure I can change calibers and be ready in 2-3 minutes max. And you can process bullets about as fast as sizing brass. It doesn't take long at all. The worst part is trimming the meplats. I found some 320 grit sandpaper that I tried by just a single stroke on the tip to clean it up from trimming. I went back and weighed the bullets, they are all still showing 107.0gr spot on. I think since it's only pointing the copper jacket and when you trim, it barely touches to meplat just to uniform it. So it's like 1 kernel of ball powder is all...really small amount. And yes, it's only doing the tip (meplat)



____________________
“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”
― Ronald Reagan


 Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2014 12:59 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
10th Post
swampshooter

 

Joined: Sun Aug 3rd, 2008
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 7073
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: .204, 284, 7RM, 30/06
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

The general consensus of competition shooters is that it is well worthwhile. At our last state mid-range F-Class match 4 points out of a possible 600 points separated the first from the seventh place shooters. If you want to do everything that is reasonably possible to improve the long range accuracy of your cartridges then pointing bullets is required, especially when shooting LR. If just shooting for fun or hunting then it is probably just a PITA. Some LR shooters are even weighing their primers on $2,000.00 scales in order to eliminate as many variables as possible. Anything that can be done to uniform the velocity of the load and BC of the bullet will pay off in less points lost on target.



____________________
NRA Endowment member
NRA Range Technical Team Advisor
TSRA member
NRA certified pistol coach-Retired
NRA classified Master, F-Class mid-range
Velocity is like a new car, always losing value
BC is like diamonds, maintaining value forever


 Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2014 01:11 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
11th Post
SavageShooter



Joined: Mon Feb 15th, 2010
Location: Suburb Of KC, Missouri USA
Posts: 5852
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: Improved Chamberings
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Another update: I think one could eliminate the meplat trimmer all together. I dug out a super fine file that I had when I worked sheet metal and now I just lay it on the board and run the bullet across it once and it does way better than the meplat trimmer and is quicker. Still weighed a few of them, pointing and trimming is not showing up on my scale.

Looking forward to loading up my test rounds and seeing if I can "tell" the difference.

I will say this much though...you take a bullet with an obvious hole in the front of it, which for those of us who understand external ballistics, knows this causes drag. Then after pointing them, you eliminate the hole so this would mean less drag. It has to work, but will it be enough to justify the purchase to this particular shooter? I'm not sure I'll ever know unless I start shooting competition. Regardless, I'm enjoying it and as long as that keeps up, I'll keep doing it. :thumbs:



____________________
“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”
― Ronald Reagan


 Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2014 01:17 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
12th Post
Ruffian
Senior Member


Joined: Wed Feb 19th, 2014
Location: Rockland County NY
Posts: 3961
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: 6mm&25-06AI 40&460S&W 7mm,280 Rem,300&30-378 Wby,6.5x47& 338 Lapua Mag,6mmPPC & wildcats
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Savageshooter,

   Whats your gut read on the proccessss !!!!....is it worth it  ya / na   Did you fire off any amt of rounds to make a decission yet ???? court still out on this one ?

 

 



____________________
Tight Lines / Shoot Often
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
Friends of the FORTY FIVE

RUFFIAN




 Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2014 01:18 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
13th Post
swampshooter

 

Joined: Sun Aug 3rd, 2008
Location: Texas USA
Posts: 7073
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: .204, 284, 7RM, 30/06
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

If you started shooting High Power or F-Class competitively you would enjoy it immensely.



____________________
NRA Endowment member
NRA Range Technical Team Advisor
TSRA member
NRA certified pistol coach-Retired
NRA classified Master, F-Class mid-range
Velocity is like a new car, always losing value
BC is like diamonds, maintaining value forever


 Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2014 02:46 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
14th Post
dogtheshooter
Full Member
 

Joined: Wed Jun 12th, 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 523
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: 260 remington ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Pretty cool stuff SS thanks for posting, interesting topic for sure.

Just wondering; how much less are the Sierra .264 140gr blems than firsts? Say per 100.



 Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2014 04:10 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
15th Post
SavageShooter



Joined: Mon Feb 15th, 2010
Location: Suburb Of KC, Missouri USA
Posts: 5852
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: Improved Chamberings
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Ruffian wrote:
Savageshooter,

   Whats your gut read on the proccessss !!!!....is it worth it  ya / na   Did you fire off any amt of rounds to make a decission yet ???? court still out on this one ?



Well, weather hasn't been nice enough to shoot yet. But I'm confident that it will improve wind drift and vertical drop at long ranges. It has too, cause drag has been reduced. How much? Don't know yet. Is it worth the squeeze? Don't know yet. Pointing is easy peasy. If I had to do it over again would I purchase it? Yep, I have no doubt. I'd skip the meplat trimmer though, my fine file does a way better job and it's easier to use to boot.



____________________
“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”
― Ronald Reagan


 Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2014 04:11 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
16th Post
SavageShooter



Joined: Mon Feb 15th, 2010
Location: Suburb Of KC, Missouri USA
Posts: 5852
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: Improved Chamberings
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

dogtheshooter wrote:
Pretty cool stuff SS thanks for posting, interesting topic for sure.

Just wondering; how much less are the Sierra .264 140gr blems than firsts? Say per 100.


I've done the math several times. It comes to be about 45%-55% off the factory first or retail bullets, depending on caliber and weight. It's cause they sell them by the pound and not by count.



____________________
“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”
― Ronald Reagan


 Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2014 08:03 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
17th Post
ptaylortx
Full Member


Joined: Tue Aug 28th, 2012
Location: Deweyville, Texas USA
Posts: 585
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: .308 winchester, 260 rem, 223... so many to choose
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

I'm thinking of making a roadtrip on my vacation to the sierra outlet and stock up on projectiles. Those dies might be worth investing in if I have enought "seconds".



 Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2014 10:45 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
18th Post
SKami
Full Member


Joined: Fri Mar 29th, 2013
Location: Algoma, Wisconsin USA
Posts: 164
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: .308W
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

This is an interesting endeavor, I hope you see improvement. Incidentally, why are match bullets hollow points and not pointed, if there's an edge in accuracy to pointing them?



____________________
Run what you brung and hope you brung enough!


 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2014 05:42 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
19th Post
SavageShooter



Joined: Mon Feb 15th, 2010
Location: Suburb Of KC, Missouri USA
Posts: 5852
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: Improved Chamberings
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

SKami wrote:
This is an interesting endeavor, I hope you see improvement. Incidentally, why are match bullets hollow points and not pointed, if there's an edge in accuracy to pointing them?

Quoted from Precision Ballistics, LLC:

The open tip design has long been revered for it's accuracy. It is designed for precision shooting, rather than to expand upon impact like a hollow point design. A jacketed hollow point bullet has a fairly large hole specifically added to the tip, whereas an open tip bullet gets it's small open tip as a result of forming the jacket into a bullet in the point up die. An open tip design has an extremely small aperture compared with a hollow point design. The open tip lightens the forward section of the bullet, shifting the center of gravity towards the back of the bullet. This produces an improved ballistic coefficient, greater down-range velocity retention, and greater resistance to crosswind deflection.



____________________
“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”
― Ronald Reagan


 Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2014 07:31 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
20th Post
bstark
Forum Benefactor


Joined: Tue May 11th, 2010
Location: Roanoke, Indiana USA
Posts: 480
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: 308 ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Savageshooter, I apologize for not seeing this sooner. I've been on a little vacation and left my computer behind for a change.

I'm not sure I can add a lot. Swampshooter nailed it in my opinion. It will be tough to see much improvement at mid ranges. The process is embraced by the long range shooters, especially F-class. If you read Bryan Litz' Applied Ballistics, he lays it out in terms we can understand. The bottom line is, improved BC translates to improved scores.

I'm surprised you are unhappy with the meplat trimmer. I'm not familiar with the Whidden but I get good results with the Hoover system. However, I do believe trimming and pointing go hand in hand. Although I've never tried it, I'm pretty sure trimming only will degrade performance. Trimming is just a prepatory step before pointing.

Since you shoot blems, you may well see improvement that otherwise wouldn't be noticeable. I would tend to say in your case (i.e. primarily hunting and not competition) that trimming/pointing wouldn't be worthwhile. However, this may just be the ticket to bringing a blem into line with a retail grade bullet. The only way to know will be to run the tests. It sounds like you have an excellent test prepared and I look forward to hearing your results.



____________________
21st Century Shooting - Products for the 21st Century Shooter/Reloader Made in the USA.

http://www.21stcenturyshooting.com


 Current time is 04:55 PMPage:    1  2  Next Page Last Page  
Top




UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.2034 seconds (8% database + 92% PHP). 29 queries executed.