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45acp reloads
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 Posted: Thu Apr 20th, 2017 09:54 PM
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willee51
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Joined: Wed Apr 19th, 2017
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My favorite chambering is:: 45acp
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Ref:  Lyman Reloading Handbook, 49th Edition, pgs 380-382
Ammo I've been using: Winchester 45acp, 230grn, TMJ (white box).  Have about 500 of my own, once fired brass.

Ok, thinking about getting into reloading, got myself the Manual above and have some early questions?

1. Manual calls for 1.275 OAL, but my new ammo (listed above) measures 1.255 ????

2. Data for each caliber in the above left corner, for each round,  lists figures for "BC" and "SD" what is this?

3. Test components for the 45acp lists: Remington & CCI primers.  I shoot Glock 45's and the dealer I got them from recommends Federal primers, as they are "softer" with less mis-fires.  Any truth to this.  And does it matter what primer BRAND I use as long as it not Magnum and is the required large or small, depending on case?

One comment: hope I can find a local supplier of Primers, to AVOID the LARGE HazMat charge!!



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 Posted: Thu Apr 20th, 2017 10:57 PM
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RobertMT
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I suggest reading and rereading http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum20/42401.html
it's laid out well and will answer many of your questions.



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 Posted: Fri Apr 21st, 2017 06:28 AM
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HighBC
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I suggest you spend some time reading a good instruction reloading manual, Speer, Hornady, ABC's, and Lyman is especially informative if you ever decide to load lead also. But for the basics of loading jacketed, I like Speer, as they really lay it out in an organized step by step manner.

Primers- which brand or even type, be it Winchester CCI, or Federal, magnum or standard, is really only pertinent during load development. I have a brand / type I prefer, my neighbor may prefer another brand or type, but at the end of the day, as long as we work the load up with that primer and re-work each time we change brand or type this and accuracy is all that matters. I've been using CCI and Winchester for about 4 decades, haven't had a single misfire yet. BTW, you can use a magnum primer for a standard primer application, you just need to develop the load with that primer is all, and make sure the firing pin is impacting with enough inertia to reliably detonate them due to thicker cups.

OAL - The oal of a factory round really means little. As reloaders we have the ability to tailor our OAL's and other aspects of the load to feed, fit, and function in our firearms, not every firearm like factory ammo specifications are. Generally, I like to find an OAL that will fit the magazine, feed reliably from the magazine, and pass the plunk test, which is how we check to ensure the bullet isn't contacting the lands when dropped in the barrel.

I honestly don't even look at published OAL, I use the barrel/chamber as my gauge. I prefer to use the longest OAL that I can, provided neck tension is acceptable and of course fit, feed, and function are all 100%. If this coincidentally happens to be the same or similar to the published OAL, so be it, but I'd probably never notice anyway.

"BC" is ballistic coefficient
"SD" is sectional density

HBC



 Posted: Fri Apr 21st, 2017 06:09 PM
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willee51
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HighBC wrote: I suggest you spend some time reading a good instruction reloading manual, Speer, Hornady, ABC's, and Lyman is especially informative if you ever decide to load lead also. But for the basics of loading jacketed, I like Speer, as they really lay it out in an organized step by step manner.

Primers- which brand or even type, be it Winchester CCI, or Federal, magnum or standard, is really only pertinent during load development. I have a brand / type I prefer, my neighbor may prefer another brand or type, but at the end of the day, as long as we work the load up with that primer and re-work each time we change brand or type this and accuracy is all that matters. I've been using CCI and Winchester for about 4 decades, haven't had a single misfire yet. BTW, you can use a magnum primer for a standard primer application, you just need to develop the load with that primer is all, and make sure the firing pin is impacting with enough inertia to reliably detonate them due to thicker cups.

OAL - The oal of a factory round really means little. As reloaders we have the ability to tailor our OAL's and other aspects of the load to feed, fit, and function in our firearms, not every firearm like factory ammo specifications are. Generally, I like to find an OAL that will fit the magazine, feed reliably from the magazine, and pass the plunk test, which is how we check to ensure the bullet isn't contacting the lands when dropped in the barrel.

I honestly don't even look at published OAL, I use the barrel/chamber as my gauge. I prefer to use the longest OAL that I can, provided neck tension is acceptable and of course fit, feed, and function are all 100%. If this coincidentally happens to be the same or similar to the published OAL, so be it, but I'd probably never notice anyway.

"BC" is ballistic coefficient
"SD" is sectional density

HBC

Thanks a million HBC for your time and the detailed information!  God Bless



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 Posted: Sun Apr 23rd, 2017 08:10 AM
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noylj
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It was a lot easier BEFORE manuals decided to print their test COL. Every reloader learned how to work out the COL and realized that COL was a gun/bullet number.
Per Ramshot:
"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum ‘Start Load.’"

Your COL (Cartridge Overall Length) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the empty case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood (or a few mils higher than where the head of an empty case aligns with the barrel, as all cases are too short and I prefer to minimize head space). After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop this round in the barrel and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

If you don't know what BC or SD means, every book should have an appendix that lists all acronyms/abbreviations used. BC is how aerodynamic the bullet is and sectional density is sort of how long and heavy the bullet is.



 Posted: Sun Apr 23rd, 2017 11:23 AM
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Ruffian
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noylj- nice write up plus one with that info:thumbs::thumbs:



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 Posted: Sun Apr 23rd, 2017 12:50 PM
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SeabeeChief
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willee51 wrote: Ref:  Lyman Reloading Handbook, 49th Edition, pgs 380-382
Ammo I've been using: Winchester 45acp, 230grn, TMJ (white box).  Have about 500 of my own, once fired brass.

Ok, thinking about getting into reloading, got myself the Manual above and have some early questions?

1. Manual calls for 1.275 OAL, but my new ammo (listed above) measures 1.255 ????

2. Data for each caliber in the above left corner, for each round,  lists figures for "BC" and "SD" what is this?

3. Test components for the 45acp lists: Remington & CCI primers.  I shoot Glock 45's and the dealer I got them from recommends Federal primers, as they are "softer" with less mis-fires.  Any truth to this.  And does it matter what primer BRAND I use as long as it not Magnum and is the required large or small, depending on case?

One comment: hope I can find a local supplier of Primers, to AVOID the LARGE HazMat charge!!

As already stated, read as many manuals as you can. The basic rules and routine of reloading are in there. As for primers, I used Federal for a number of years but they became hard to find so I went back to CCI and never had an issue with either. If you get case lube on your finger and touch the primer it may not fire. As a personal rule, I never touch primers with anything but the tray they ship in and the tray they are put in to load and I've never had a misfire since I started loading in 1974.

Ken



 Posted: Tue Apr 25th, 2017 03:56 PM
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lazs
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seabeechief.. great advice... I use only federal primers for my revolvers.... I hated CCI as being harder than the hubs of hell as my grand dad used to say.... I haven't tried any in decades they left such a bad taste.. Once I had the choice between russian primers and CCI and I chose the commie ones... that is how much I have hated CCI...

I am sure you had much the same experiences I had LOL... but you at least are trying em again... are they really "not horrible" now?

lazs



 Posted: Wed Apr 26th, 2017 03:27 AM
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HighBC
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Your welcome Willee51!

God Bless
HBC



 Posted: Wed Apr 26th, 2017 12:01 PM
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Damannoyed
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willee51 wrote:
Ref:  Lyman Reloading Handbook, 49th Edition, pgs 380-382
Ammo I've been using: Winchester 45acp, 230grn, TMJ (white box).  Have about 500 of my own, once fired brass.

Ok, thinking about getting into reloading, got myself the Manual above and have some early questions?

1. Manual calls for 1.275 OAL, but my new ammo (listed above) measures 1.255 ????

2. Data for each caliber in the above left corner, for each round,  lists figures for "BC" and "SD" what is this?

3. Test components for the 45acp lists: Remington & CCI primers.  I shoot Glock 45's and the dealer I got them from recommends Federal primers, as they are "softer" with less mis-fires.  Any truth to this.  And does it matter what primer BRAND I use as long as it not Magnum and is the required large or small, depending on case?

One comment: hope I can find a local supplier of Primers, to AVOID the LARGE HazMat charge!!


#1- what the load developer used may OR MAY NOT be what you use for finished OAL.
If no adjustments are made, shorter equals higher pressure, longer equals lower pressure.
This is NOT related to "OAL" but to remaining empty volume inside the case below the bullet where the powder burns. Burn same powder in a smaller containment, pressure is higher, and vice versa.
MOST cartridges are, IMO, pretty docile about this, SOME are very twitchy, .45 Auto is very calm about this.

2- BC is Ballistic Coefficient, SD is Sectional Density.
These do not matter for close-range shooting, shooting a looooong ways, higher numbers mean less velocity loss in flight and so are good.

#3- Yes, Federal primers are generally seen as "easier to ignite" or "more sensitive", I have seen precisely ONE Glock that choked on Winchesters I use so much, for un-modified guns, it is really not much of a problem.
"More sensitive" at shooting also means More Sensitive in priming devices,,,, your call on what you use.

#3A- Yes and No. (It Depends). Primers vary as to "power" (heat output) by both the compound used to make them and the amount the mfr. uses.
If you are pushing a full-power tested load to the max (like my Social Use ammo), it is wise to use the tested components combination.
If you are needing primers for a sub-max load for whatever uses, no primer will be so hot that it makes your mid-range load into a above-proof bomb.

A LOT of things in the world of making our own ammo come up as "Depends", because it is very situational. I call it The Underwear Effect. ;)



 Posted: Wed Apr 26th, 2017 04:15 PM
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runfiverun
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they publish the COAL so you can judge how much case volume you have to work with when you change it to suit your needs.

try cramming a 9mm bullet .030 shorter without lowering your powder amount and see how many proof loads your glock can handle.

the 45 acp runs at a pressure much lower than the 22lr does.
case capacity is fairly large for the round compared to the powder volume you use.
but many powders are very sensitive to that remaining volume.
put 6 point sumthin grs of titegroup in the case and set the bullet down on top of it and you went from a 19-K pressure load to 30+K load without even trying.
the powder don't like that.
do it with Unique and you raise the pressure about 1-K, it don't much care until you compress it.
heck it will probably shoot cleaner.



 Posted: Thu Apr 27th, 2017 04:12 PM
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lazs
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yep... COL is for function and for pressure... if a round is too long to fit a magazine or too long for a cylinder then obviously it won't work.. the pressure thing comes in only when you are using the bullet they list for COL... or.. one with the same bearing surface under the place you crimp.

If you have ten bullets of the same weight and caliber from different manufacturers or molds.... They may all weigh the same and even look close but some will seat far deeper into the case.... that raises pressure... it won't matter that you used the COL for a different bullet of the same weight it will still be more pressure.

you don't need to use the crimp groove necessarily.. especially with cast bullets... some jacketed bullets actually have two crimp grooves for different loads and pressures.

lazs



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