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Accuracy in rifles
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 Posted: Thu Feb 11th, 2016 11:20 PM
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keithbittner
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With out service of a gun Smith all the choices offered are out of most shooters control,all but one, ammunition is the only choice



 Posted: Fri Feb 12th, 2016 12:37 AM
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deerdog
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I've been thinking about this for a while now....Everything matters to an extent. If I had to pick, my choice would be the quality and straightness of the chamber and ammo. In the heyday of the 7mmSTW, more than a few 7mags were rechambered to the STW. Many saw a significant improvement after the rechamber. And handloads were usually involved. But not always. I witnessed a Rem 700 that became a tack driver after a rechamber job, and using factory ammo. It pretty much was a 2" grouper prior. Just my thoughts. DD



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 Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2016 04:30 PM
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43rd Post
aussiegunnut
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BEAR wrote:
What do you think the ONE MOST important thing is in getting accuracy from a rifle???

PICK FROM:

A.   rifle action

B.   Rifle barrel

C.   Ammunition/reloads

D.   Bullet choice

E.  Optics choice

 

Forget saying if the scope is junk, then no accuracy...could say that about anyone of above. 

Assume other options are normal grade!

 


I'll take a stab at this one! But it might be a biggish post...
In order of priority to achieve accuracy... My opinion looks like this;

B. The barrel is the center of mechanical accuracy, a finely machined barrel with a perfectly concentric chamber to bore center provides the basis to guide the projectile to target with mechanical consistency. The tighter the tolerance you can generate when cutting the chamber and crown to the bore center line the better.
The chamber supports the ammunition, having the projectile aligned with the center axis of the bore to engage the lands squarely each shot provides the best foundation for mechanical accuracy. The bullet must also leave the bore squarely, hence a perfectly square crown.

Some factors which affect the quality of a barrel;
1. The overall straightness of the blank which it will be machined from.
2. The bore center relationship to the outside diameter of the blank. Drilling a perfectly straight hole from one end to the other requires specialised equipment, sharp rigid tooling and lots of skill. A bore that wobbles down the blank will suffer accuracy loss.
3. The quality of the rifling and it's uniformity along the bore

A. A flex free rifle action with a large footprint provides a stable base to contain the immense force distributed through the chamber and bolt face during the combustion event. Proper tenon thread engagement cut squarely and hand lapped to the rifle action threads provides mechanical security.
The bolt thrust rearward during combustion requires a large well machined surface to support the locking lugs of the bolt against the locking abutments in the action. Removing slop and play from this area provides bolt face to chamber squareness assisting point B.

C. Perfectly fitted hand loads to suit the chamber helps maintain the bore center relationship of all the above attributes providing an interior ballistically sound environment to launch the projectile upon it center axis to target. Constructing hand loads the fill the void inside the chamber perfectly so the round is held in snug is a favorable attribute.

Manufacturing perfectly identical handloads which contain:

1. Identical case volumes measured in grains of H2O
2. Consistent case dimensions ie: neck wall thickness - thus providing consistent neck tension, body taper, concentricity run out etc.
3. Cases which are the same overall length measured base to case mouth - case mouth must be square!
4. Bullets which engage the rifling at the same point in the combustion event (bullet ogive to bullet base measurement)
5. Powder charges weighed to the individual kernel
6. Consistent primer ignition
7. Powder temperature between shots - A cold round gets warm in a hot chamber effecting end pressure.

These items, plus any other I may have missed, all add to reducing the variables from shot to shot. This ensures accurate, consistent ammunition.

D. Bullet selection - I'm my opinion, this should be determined before point B - chamber cutting, is decided. The lead angle of the lands can be changed to suit the type of projectile being used to optimise the components. The sleekest, highest BC bullet pushed to the highest velocity possible will win the external ballistics race, if terminal performance on game is to be considered then the variables are huge.

E. The optic choice is the last thing I would suggest as making a rifle accurate. You can bolt a $6000 S&B, Zeiss, Vortex, whatever.. to a chinese rifle and not make the rifle accurate.
The scopes main function is to help the shooter guide the bullet to a determined point of impact consistently. A good quality optic will compliment the rifles ability, not enhance it. An accurate rifle will be accurate with out a scope, but a poor scope selection could ruin any repeatability the accurate rifle had if the turrets change position between shots, do not repeat or simply aren't calibrated to the given out put they're expected to have, the lens come free under recoil or the reticle is not secured adequately resulting in POI changes.

That's my view on the matter, some decent reading in the link below.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

    Cheers lads
    AGN



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     Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2016 08:18 PM
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    44th Post
    drysonly
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    I had two friends,one was a owner of a standard 700 in the 7rem mag. The other was a barrel maker and builder of some very accurate rifles.The friend with the 700 wanted it chambered into the 7STW.When the barrel was put into the lathe the bore was not in the center but the owner said to go ahead.We didn't think it would shoot,but guess what it shot better in the 7STW than in the original chamber of 7REM Mag.It to our surprise shot small groups.Go figure.
    The barrel maker has since left earth and is missed.

    Last edited on Tue Feb 16th, 2016 08:20 PM by drysonly



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     Posted: Tue Feb 16th, 2016 10:31 PM
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    45th Post
    Offfhand
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    Bullets and barrels, why make it more complicated?



     Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2016 06:35 AM
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    jungler
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    Without a decent barrel the best ammo and the best action, bedding etc is not worth a cent. Given the high standard of barrel making that would be my pick. But you have to remove the shooter from the equation making all things equal.



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     Posted: Mon Mar 7th, 2016 01:46 PM
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    Bowtie_jack
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    Shooter is the most important. Followed by barrel/ammunition. I've gotten sub-MOA groups out of the budget plastic stocked hunting rifles. While all the other stuff does play in, biggest factors are shooter's ability and matching the ammo to the gun. If you can get those two playing nice, good things are def possible.



     Posted: Thu Mar 10th, 2016 01:43 AM
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    SansSouci
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    Plainsman wrote:
    That's really a toughie. I'm kind of a holistic guy myself. Can we say ALL OF THE ABOVE? No? Then I guess I'd have to pass. :)

    ^^^This^^^

    I'd add a lot of practice.

    With computer aided manufacturing that takes human error out of the equation, most rifles are shooters.



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     Posted: Fri Apr 8th, 2016 09:10 PM
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    Don Arkie
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    would have to say 1st barrel, carbon fowled, copper fowled will hinder the firearms barrel performance in accuracy. Most folks fail to care for this properly. I'm a firearm re-finisher & gunsmith by trade. You wouldn't believe if I told you what I see. 80% of my business is firearm re-finishing. What I see inside barrels is freighting. Before I begin to do a complete tear down of the weapon, I run a bore scope document everything I see & run across the entire weapon on their work order sheet. Some of these weapons would amaze me if they could even be put on paper their so embedded by carbon & copper.

    Next I would say optics. This includes scope, rings & base/bases. This is the foundation of your whole entire sighting system. improper tighten on rings, bases, scopes, wrong rings to scope size & even materials, I've seen aluminum rings on magnum rifles. Which in my opinion aint a good thing.



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     Posted: Sun Apr 10th, 2016 03:52 AM
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    9x19mm
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    If we're talking new here, because used gear wasn't mentioned and neither was the shooter, and assuming the scope is mounted correctly, C is my choice. I haven't run an off the shelf, production rifle yet that couldn't be made more precise by finding the right load for that particular rifle. Sure a damaged crown, sloppy action or loose sights/scope can affect accuracy but that wasn't part of the question.



     Posted: Thu Apr 14th, 2016 04:33 AM
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    dadajack
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    From recent experience, factory rifles can be made to shoot well, but never as well as a custom made, perfectly concentric bore to chamber to muzzle barrel will be able to do... CONSISTENTLY. The consistency part is what really makes the total package what it is. My 6.5 Creedmoor barrel on the Savage model 12 shot anywhere from 1/4" to 3/4" with the same load from one 5 shot group to the other. The fliers were due to an off-center chamber. If you forced a bullet into the lands, you could only ever see two or three (if you pushed really hard) of the lands show up. Now, that accuracy is great for a factory gun, but the Creedmoor is capable of much more than being a 3/4 MOA gun.



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     Posted: Thu Apr 14th, 2016 02:45 PM
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    BEAR
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    I think Aussiegunnut expressed my belief very well.

    The barrel is the key, without a great barrel, the action, etc doesn't mean much.was always a concern to me how companies like Ruger would undertake making all the intricate parts of an action, and then outsource the barrel to the low cost supplier? Thereby they lose quality control of the critical part.

    Ruger has brought some of its barrel making in-house but not before getting reputation for beautiful rifles with poor accuracy.



     Posted: Thu Apr 14th, 2016 03:21 PM
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    Don Arkie
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    good point Bear.
    I've seen a huge decline in quality of factory manufactured firearms. Remington is one. But their are a few that seem to hold a standard above others Savage. I've always been a huge fan of Savage, when the 110 saved them from the brink of closure, they started building rifles that were accurate out of the box, something rarely IMO you see anymore from other manufactures. I have a brand new out of the box Remington 700 the shop and the scope mount holes were stripped where you couldn't remove the plugs and you worked the action and the trigger would go off closing the bolt. This was a 1 1 yrs ago. The quality of the finish was horrible (reason why the gun was in the shop). Nothing like what Remington used to produce.



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     Posted: Mon May 16th, 2016 08:01 PM
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    B W M
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    ALL 6 of them



     Posted: Mon May 16th, 2016 09:50 PM
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    BEAR
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    New purchase 223 m700 groups under 1" with factory.

    Today's rifles make pre-64 model 70s look like tomato stakes.

    Also today's factory ammo makes reloading, not necessary for accuracy. I still reload 41 different cartridges; I"m so old and entrenched-can't change things now.

    can a casket hold 41 RCBS die boxes???



     Posted: Mon May 23rd, 2016 05:20 PM
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    56th Post
    Averageman
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    All other variables listed being the same, I would have to say the ammunition and barrel combination.
    No one factor can make a rifle good, but it only takes one to make it a loser.



     Posted: Tue May 24th, 2016 08:21 AM
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    LittleMike
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    I agree it's the shooter. I have a rifle, a gift 7mm mag, 11years old, my relative who owned it can shoot those pretty little 5 hole circles about one and a half inches at 200 yards or so. Me, If I get 3 of the rounds into the black 3 inch circle, it's time to celebrate.  Seems to be if any of the items you listed is foobar, the whole thing is problematic.



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     Posted: Tue May 24th, 2016 08:21 AM
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    LittleMike
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    I agree it's the shooter. I have a rifle, a gift 7mm mag, 11years old, my relative who owned it can shoot those pretty little 5 hole circles about one and a half inches at 200 yards or so. Me, If I get 3 of the rounds into the black 3 inch circle, it's time to celebrate.  Seems to be if any of the items you listed is foobar, the whole thing is problematic.



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     Posted: Tue May 24th, 2016 08:21 AM
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    LittleMike
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    I agree it's the shooter. I have a rifle, a gift 7mm mag, 11years old, my relative who owned it can shoot those pretty little 5 hole circles about one and a half inches at 200 yards or so. Me, If I get 3 of the rounds into the black 3 inch circle, it's time to celebrate.  Seems to be if any of the items you listed is foobar, the whole thing is problematic.



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