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Military 223 once fired primer pockets
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 Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2017 10:04 AM
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Dickn52
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The trail was a life learning experience for sure.



 Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2017 11:32 AM
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I've got a SuperSwager and have done a bizzillion or so rounds with it. However, my last brass purchase was from a place call Brass Bombers; they do a great job of cleaning and knocking off the military crimp. Which by the way is on 5.56 brass; I've never seen 'Military .223' as stated in the op's title...



 Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2017 12:29 PM
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Damannoyed
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"Military .223" is 5.56x45mm.

The 2 cartridges, .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm are the exact same, they have been the same since their creation by Remington in the 1960's.
They are dimensionally the same, they are the same pressure rating (measured by 2 different systems which gives the same pressure 2 different numbers)).
The .222 Remington would not provide the velocities required by the military so a new cartridge was developed, the 5.56x45mm because people started doing things metric back then (the big push for that had also started).
For civilian sale as a varminting cartridge, at it's creation, Remington named it the .223 Remington, the government has always purchased it as 5.56x45mm.

This is the exact same with .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm also, same identical cartridge, 2 names.

Now, in the last 20-30 years the rifle chambers have changed (in the throat/leade area only (to accommodate really heavy-for-caliber .223 bullets), not in the chamber proper).

It's confusing, screwy.

Last edited on Mon Feb 6th, 2017 12:34 PM by Damannoyed



 Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2017 12:42 PM
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Damannoyed wrote: "Military .223" is 5.56x45mm.

The 2 cartridges, .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm are the exact same, they have been the same since their creation by Remington in the 1960's.
They are dimensionally the same, they are the same pressure rating (measured by 2 different systems which gives the same pressure 2 different numbers)).
The .222 Remington would not provide the velocities required by the military so a new cartridge was developed, the 5.56x45mm because people started doing things metric back then (the big push for that had also started).
For civilian sale as a varminting cartridge, at it's creation, Remington named it the .223 Remington, the government has always purchased it as 5.56x45mm.

This is the exact same with .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm also, same identical cartridge, 2 names.

Now, in the last 20-30 years the rifle chambers have changed (in the throat/leade area only (to accommodate really heavy-for-caliber .223 bullets), not in the chamber proper).

It's confusing, screwy.

Yes, and just like demoncraps, lots of "exspurts" post false info. The above is probably the best way I've seen this explained.



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 Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2017 01:20 PM
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the 5.56 brass will handle more PSI than the 223 rounds, chambers are cut a bit more throat area, that's my 2 cents worth.

Last edited on Mon Feb 6th, 2017 01:23 PM by Ruffian



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 Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2017 02:48 PM
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I looked at swagers and reamers. I went with the Wilson reamer. While it is designed to be used with the Wilson Case Trimmer I found I could use it freehand. Easy and quick and great job.

I use the Wilson Case Trimmer for case prep. Best I have used. The precision and quality of their equip is top quality.



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 Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2017 11:04 PM
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Damannoyed wrote:
"Military .223" is 5.56x45mm.

The 2 cartridges, .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm are the exact same, they have been the same since their creation by Remington in the 1960's.
They are dimensionally the same, they are the same pressure rating (measured by 2 different systems which gives the same pressure 2 different numbers)).
The .222 Remington would not provide the velocities required by the military so a new cartridge was developed, the 5.56x45mm because people started doing things metric back then (the big push for that had also started).
For civilian sale as a varminting cartridge, at it's creation, Remington named it the .223 Remington, the government has always purchased it as 5.56x45mm.

This is the exact same with .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm also, same identical cartridge, 2 names.

Now, in the last 20-30 years the rifle chambers have changed (in the throat/leade area only (to accommodate really heavy-for-caliber .223 bullets), not in the chamber proper).

It's confusing, screwy.


I agree; great write up and explanation All I was saying is I've never seen a Nato cross with the characters ".223 REM" on the same headstamp. Federal Cartridge (FC) .223 REM as as bad as any military brass I've ever come across with respect to primer pockets. I'd rather go straight Lake City which is all I use now. But that's just a Joe thing. YMMV...



 Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2017 12:01 PM
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Ruffian wrote:
the 5.56 brass will handle more PSI than the 223 rounds, chambers are cut a bit more throat area, that's my 2 cents worth.
No, theyt won't, but this misperception is one of the confusions surrounding them.

The mil. specs a higher pressure than SAAMI std MAP, BUT, they specify a different testing methodology. This is where the confusion rolls in.

SAAMI reads pressure with a piezo-electric transducer with a surface that forms a part of the chamber, it reads THROUGH the brass case.

The Mil. specifies that a hole is drilled through the case and when fired the gas blasts through that drilled hole up against a direct-read transducer. This is "old-style", call it a half-step between the old CUP crushers and the modern piezo-transducers.
This is the same method that CIP uses when pressure testing.

The exact same loading will not read the same when tested though both systems. The actual pressures they give will be the same, but the numbers generated are not the same.

SAAMI specdifies the .223 R cartridge to a Max. Avg. Press of 55kpsi piezo.
CIP specifies the same cartridge to 62kpsi Piezo.
The army specifies it to 62kpsi and require the testing to be done by CIP methodology.

It's the same.




Now Mil. 7.62x51mm has thicker, heavier, lower volume cases than .308Win, but IT is also only specified to .308 Win. 62kpsi piezo SAAMI levels (60kpsi CIP piezo).
.223 Mil. brass has no particular less volume, or more weight, than civ. .223 brass, some is, some isn't, it's a scattrershot unlike .308 brass.


Here is a good pressure sensor primer from PCB Piezotronics.
http://www.pcb.com/Contentstore/mktgcontent/LinkedDocuments/Aerospace/AD-BallisticPressureGuide_LowRes.pdf


I'm still looking for a page I like that I usually refer this issue to, from another sensor mfg. company.

Last edited on Tue Feb 7th, 2017 12:04 PM by Damannoyed



 Posted: Tue Feb 7th, 2017 12:12 PM
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Damannoyed
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JoeBUtah wrote:
Damannoyed wrote:
"Military .223" is 5.56x45mm.

The 2 cartridges, .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm are the exact same, they have been the same since their creation by Remington in the 1960's.
They are dimensionally the same, they are the same pressure rating (measured by 2 different systems which gives the same pressure 2 different numbers)).
The .222 Remington would not provide the velocities required by the military so a new cartridge was developed, the 5.56x45mm because people started doing things metric back then (the big push for that had also started).
For civilian sale as a varminting cartridge, at it's creation, Remington named it the .223 Remington, the government has always purchased it as 5.56x45mm.

This is the exact same with .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm also, same identical cartridge, 2 names.

Now, in the last 20-30 years the rifle chambers have changed (in the throat/leade area only (to accommodate really heavy-for-caliber .223 bullets), not in the chamber proper).

It's confusing, screwy.


I agree; great write up and explanation All I was saying is I've never seen a Nato cross with the characters ".223 REM" on the same headstamp. Federal Cartridge (FC) .223 REM as as bad as any military brass I've ever come across with respect to primer pockets. I'd rather go straight Lake City which is all I use now. But that's just a Joe thing. YMMV...


No, you haven't, and you won't, because .223Remington is the civilian headstamp name. The mil. does not buy it under that headstamp identification. NATO does not use it under that headstamp name.



 Posted: Sun Feb 12th, 2017 04:36 PM
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Damannoyed,
Than why is everybody holding back on the loadings of the 5.56 with the powder----if you claim its all the same brass just the headstamp different ????? Sorry I don't buy that one at all.. The 5.56 is a heavier brass for mil reasons .. yes or no ????:confused::confused::confused:



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 Posted: Mon Feb 13th, 2017 02:46 AM
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Everyone I know who has weighed 5.56 AND .223R brass, has found a complete intermingling of case weights.

They have NOT found 5.56x45mm brass to be "heavier" with any regularity.
Some is, some isn't.
I'll see if I can search up some of those posts.

Below is stuff I pulled around the web.

"The cases i've weighed (sized, cleaned, & trimmed) are mostly 5.56 NATO crap (PPU, IAI, LC, etc of all years) and most of them are coming in at 91.5 gr +/- 2 grains. PMP is well over 100 grains, and some of the commerical .223 comes in under 90 but for the most part falls in the 2 grain window."

"I was working with a bunch of mixed-stamp .223 Rem brass earlier this year. Various military headstamps (each from various years), plus various commercial. I found quite a significant range of weights when I just weighed the cases alone. What I also found, though, was that the case capacities could be remarkably similar between different headstamps, even if those headstamps weighed significantly different (i.e. more than 10 grains) when empty."

".223 brass can run to extremes, especially if you throw foreign manufacturer's into the mix. AeroE's suggestion makes sense as far as highpower tournament use goes. Remington .223 is the lightest currently available. Older lots of Winchester can be even lighter, around 88 grains. Most other .223 brass manufactured in the USA averages around 93 to 94 grains. Old stock Lapua and some foreign makers can weigh over 103 grains per case. New Lapua brass is more in line with USA standards. "

"FWIW, I found Lake City (LC '12) cases the lightest cases, averaging about 95.6 grains. Next were the AD (AD '98) at about 97.2, Third were the Winchester .223 and WCC at about 98.5 average. The heaviest were the AMA Danish shells at 101.3 grains."

"2) I have sorted .223 and 5.56x45mm cases just to see what the weight distribution looked like and I found there was usually as much variation in cases with the same head stamp as there was between cases with different head stamps - confirming there is no significant difference between them. "



"Than why is everybody holding back on the loadings of the 5.56 with the powder".

I do not think they are.

All .223 Data I have ever seen is heavier powder charges for 50-some grain bullets (40-50-=some).
This is because these shoot great in 12" and 14" twist .223 Remington barrels (and the original same-twist 1960's and 70's AR barrels).

All the "5.56x45mm" data I have is all for 60grain and up bullets. 62-77gr.
This reduces powder charges for 2 reasons, BOTH bullet weight AND the extreme length of 77gr bullets being seated to the same magazine-driven OAL's as 52gr bullets from 1965-era AR's.
Also, fast twists increase pressure because it increases bullet resistance down the barrel. The energy required to spin the bullet comes from someplace, a 7" twist barrel will fire the exact same cartridge with a slightly higher pressure than a 14" twist barrel.
Now, IMO that's a fairly small "boost", but it IS a noted occurrence.

If that isn't what you mean by "holding back" than I misunderstand your question.:sad:

Now, on .308W brass, the "Heavier Military Brass is a fact, a fact I can back up with weighed cases, weighing them since around 1990.
Civvie .308 was typically 165 to 174gr.
GI (mainly Lake City) 7.62 is typically 180-188gr.

Again, people weighing .223R and 5.56 GI are finding it to weigh all over the place, not "mil is always heavier".

Last edited on Mon Feb 13th, 2017 02:53 AM by Damannoyed



 Posted: Mon Feb 13th, 2017 02:59 AM
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Also,, bear in mind, the brass case is NOT a "strength point" in shooting a gun.
Without the steel chamber, the brass explodes, unless it is literally many inches thick (brass/bronze cannons).

The thickness of brass does NOTHING for or against it's ability to take pressure.

GI 7.62 today is almost exclusively machine gun ammo, likely 98% of it feeds either an M240B or G, or a Dillon Aero Minigun.

What you DO get out of thicker brass is increased damage resistance.
as light as 5.56 ammo is, even in bulk (and every bit I ever got assigned to me was in 20-rnd boxes or 10-rnd stripper clips (in bandoliers). The ammo is sufficiently light it is unlikely to dent itself 'rattling around".
Every .308 cartridge weighs 3X as much and those are found in long belts stacked atop themselves, much more likely to dent.



 Posted: Mon Feb 13th, 2017 01:47 PM
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Ruffian
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I just wish they were still alive to ask them this same question regarding 223 / 5.56 need to reread your above post and find my notes on that one. I know there were a lot of differences back in the development stages before the Army / US Govt bought them and the ammo itself. It is a very good write-up and an eye opener for some, am sure.
Damannoyed thanks, its always been a very :confused::confused::confused::confused: issue.



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 Posted: Sun Feb 26th, 2017 12:34 PM
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Ruffian wrote:
Damannoyed,
Than why is everybody holding back on the loadings of the 5.56 with the powder----if you claim its all the same brass just the headstamp different ????? Sorry I don't buy that one at all.. The 5.56 is a heavier brass for mil reasons .. yes or no ????:confused::confused::confused:

Maybe...? But the angle of the shoulder area is the big difference.



 Posted: Sun Feb 26th, 2017 01:53 PM
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Dickn52 wrote:
Ruffian wrote:
Damannoyed,
Than why is everybody holding back on the loadings of the 5.56 with the powder----if you claim its all the same brass just the headstamp different ????? Sorry I don't buy that one at all.. The 5.56 is a heavier brass for mil reasons .. yes or no ????:confused::confused::confused:

Maybe...? But the angle of the shoulder area is the big difference.


:confused::confused: Now I'm totally lost. The angle of the 5.56x45 Case is identical to the .223 Remington Case. The difference is in the CHAMBER DIMENSIONS! The only chamber angle difference is in the throat angle. Their is a slight difference in some other dimensions but likely not enough to limit chambering of one cartridge in the other's chamber. Military chambers are usually cut a bit generous to allow for differences in ammo, continuous fire with no opportunity for cleaning, dirty ammo, and ease of extraction for brass not intended for reuse. Here is a link to a dimensional drawing for a Clymer reamer with a line by line comparison of dimensions:
http://www.mlogiudice.com/outdoors/guns/reloading/images/223vs556-2.pdf



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 Posted: Sun Feb 26th, 2017 02:05 PM
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RD- have to agree with you , that the throat's are different for sure, for sure. That's why one can fire the 223 in the 5.56 chamber but not the other way cause of the higher PSI.. YES or NO in my knowledge of the two ???:confused::confused::confused: SOME H E L P here.



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 Posted: Sun Feb 26th, 2017 02:45 PM
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I still haven't picked up a case prep center yet and have done several thousand crimped primer pockets. So if you are like me and still having to do it the hard way is what I did was buy the crank and 22 degree chamfer tool and take the crimp out this way. I know they can be bought separately for less than the kit here.

Crank and case prep kit

Where it has a 22 degree chamfer tool it doesn't take to much out of the side and just a couple of turns will remove the crimp. I have thought of just chucking the chamfer tool up in a drill but haven't tried it yet since using the crank does it pretty easily. 



 Posted: Tue Feb 28th, 2017 05:24 AM
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The Dillon super swage is top notch... IF you are using the same headstamp, and possibly even lot. I load 223 with either LC09 once fired (well, it was once fired, now it has a few more on them) or Lapua atch 223 Remington. I don't mix them obviously, and the Lapua doesn't recur removal of a crimped primer pocket. The critical dimension for this tool is case head thickness. If they are all the same, just pop one on the arm, swage, pop swaged brass off and install unswaged brass in it's stead, and carry on. That said, the tool is very accurate at weeding out the nefarious odd ZQI, or European cases that have thicker heads. If you have to "cam over" the tol, you have a much thicker case and it should be discarded. That said, you can still ruin cases with the Dillon, but you should be able to save more than not using your current setup.



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 Posted: Tue Feb 28th, 2017 05:27 AM
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Lost-One wrote:
I still haven't picked up a case prep center yet and have done several thousand crimped primer pockets. So if you are like me and still having to do it the hard way is what I did was buy the crank and 22 degree chamfer tool and take the crimp out this way. I know they can be bought separately for less than the kit here.

Crank and case prep kit

Where it has a 22 degree chamfer tool it doesn't take to much out of the side and just a couple of turns will remove the crimp. I have thought of just chucking the chamfer tool up in a drill but haven't tried it yet since using the crank does it pretty easily. 


I used to use the Lyman VLD inside neck chamfer tool on Hornady 308 and Military 308 brass before I found the Dillon. The Lyman tool doesn't work on the small primer pockets though, hence, my choice to use the Super Swage instead since I process thousands of rounds when I do start introducing "new" brass into the mix.



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 Posted: Tue Feb 28th, 2017 08:09 AM
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I used to use the Dillon swager and it works well when you get it set up. Then I found the Brass Bombers who will sell you once fired lake city brass that has already been cleaned, deprimed, and swaged so I haven't had to mess with that step in quite a while thankfully.



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