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What Six Rifle Cartridges Will Last?
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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 01:42 AM
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Plainsman
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OK, I'll play. But what a crap-shoot! :)

-.30-06
-.308 Winchester
-7mm-08
-.243 Winchester
-300 Winchester Magnum
-.223 Remington

Remember, he said "now being sold most anywhere that ammo is sold."



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 01:50 AM
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olyeller
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runfiverun wrote: the 303 is called the 303 because of the bullet diameter.
Savage knew speed sold and if he couldn't outrun the 30-30 he was not gonna sell his rifles.
using the 311 bullet gave him that slight velocity edge [more pressure] and was just enough different for the round to be different in some peoples mind.
they are now, more than likely, made with 308 bullets but originally they used the larger diameter to bump pressures just enough to out pace the 30-30.
they also went with the odd 190gr weight to show it was a 'different' round.

With all due respect, I'm pretty certain the 303 Savage was always a .308 bore, never a .311"

As to the OP, I just hope the shooting sports are still around in 100 years. Who knows, we may have a totally new propellant system that renders what we have now totally obsolete. Maybe vision aimed lasers strapped to your head.:sofa:



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 01:57 AM
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Plainsman
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If we DO have a new propellent system (hand-held rail guns?), there will always be a sizeable band of HHOF's* who will continue to hew to the 'old', just as today we have shooters of the .450 Snider and the .45-120 Sharps. Up the old guys!


* Hard Headed Old Farts



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 02:18 AM
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Charley



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As handloaders, we don't need to worry much about factory ammo available at Walmart or Academy. I KNOW folks here load obsolete/obsolescent ammunition. Me, I load some ammo that hasn't been produced in at least 50 years or more. Includes:

.35 WSL
.351 WSL
.577/450 MH
.577 Snider
10.4mm Glisenti
10.4mm Swiss Vetterli
8x57 Kropatschek
8x50R Mannlicher
.25 Remington

Add in the obsolescent cartridges, and there are more:
.257 Roberts
.30 Remington
38 ACP (not super)
9mm Largo
338/06

Sure there are more, these are just off the top of my head.

As for the .303 Savage, references stating .308 bore include Cartridges of the World, Donelly's Guide to Conversions, Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, several online sites, and so on. The only data that shows larger diameter bullets I have is Phil Sharpe's Complete Guide To Handloading, printed circa 1957. Even he shows the use of .308,.311, and .312 bullets. Some of his data for other cartridges seems a bit odd, I'd take his information with a pretty good helping of alt.


.



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 02:48 AM
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Rockydog



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Charley wrote:

As for the .303 Savage, references stating .308 bore include Cartridges of the World, Donelly's Guide to Conversions, Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, several online sites, and so on. The only data that shows larger diameter bullets I have is Phil Sharpe's Complete Guide To Handloading, printed circa 1957. Even he shows the use of .308,.311, and .312 bullets. Some of his data for other cartridges seems a bit odd, I'd take his information with a pretty good helping of alt.
.


I agree. All sources that I have show the .303 Savage as using a .308 jacketed bullet. The original load for the 1899 Savage was a 190 grain .308 jacketed bullet.

My Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions shows it as .308 as does my Lyman 44th reloading manual and an article published in the December 2005 "Handloader" Magazine.

An article in a 2000 "Guns" magazine By Holt Bodinson states: "The .303 Savage and the .303 British cartridge are not interchangeable with each other. Neither the bullet diameter nor the cartridge dimensions are compatible. Attempting to use .303 Savage ammunition in a firearm chambered for .303 British may be unpleasant, but since the bullet diameter of the Savage is 0.308 and the British 0.311, there shouldn't be too much of a problem. The converse is not true. Attempting to chamber a .303 British cartridge in a .303 Savage weapon is guaranteed to have serious consequences. Such attempts will severely damage the firearm and possibly injure the user."

All that said, the .303 standard load did feature a 190 grain bullet. This was the heaviest of the trio of rounds (303 Savage, .30 Rem., And 30-30 Win.) that are nearly identical other wise and was used to promote the .303 Savage as the best of the three.

Interestingly the case capacities of the .303 Savage, 30 Remington, and 30-30 Winchester are close enough to easily and safely use the starting 30-30 data for all three.

Grains of water:
.303 Savage 46.58
.30 Remington 45.75
30-30 Winchester 44.50

RD



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 02:55 AM
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TMan51
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RandyHK91 wrote:
What cartridges will be around the longest ??


Anything based on the .30-06, .308, and standard short magnum case (7RM-.458). The .223 is so saturated with users, it will never die. The 7.62X39 might be the round that rules the world, in the end.



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 03:49 AM
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William T. Watts
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30/06
7mm Rem Mag
30/30
.280 Rem
.270 Win
.243 Win

The 30/06 & .270 Win won't do anything the .280 Rem can't do, It's a shame this cartridge hasn't Caught on with the hunter, superb round!! My .280 Remington is a model 70 Winchester in a Featherweight configuration with claw extractor, Sub MOA rifle with 150gr Nosler soft points & H4831 powder!! William



 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 12:09 PM
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9.3X75R
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For North American use I expect about everyone agrees with the -06 based cartridges. Hard to see how some of those will ever go away. My thoughts would only echo what so many others have posted. However, there is a whole lot of world other than just North America. I would add a few cartridges that while well known on our shores don't see as much use here as they do across the rest of the planet.

375 H&H. Not only is it about the most versatile round for larger big game it gave birth to about all the belted magnums in this country.

303 British. No doubt from when "the sun never set on the British Empire".

8 X 57 Mauser. The 30-06 of the rest of the world. Not only did it provide a basis for sooo many European cartridges its influence was felt strongly on our shores. Regardless of whether one wants to believe it or not it is essentially the parent case of the 30-06 and, if properly loaded, gives up so little to the -06 as to nearly be meaningless.

9.3 X 74R. Mostly because I just really like the cartridge and hope it never goes away.

Interesting question and definitely food for thought on a cold, winter day. One has to wonder why, with so incredibly much duplication among cartridges, one cartridge with nearly identical ballistics succeeds and another falls by the wayside. Obviously a military connection has a huge bearing on the success of any but, beyond that and perhaps poor marketing, it seems to be something of a crap shoot. Or, perhaps, who was there "firstest with the mostest".

Which will fail? The list of those that already have is indeed lengthy and many of them just as good as those that have succeeded. I never did get the 260 Remington thing. Other than being based on the 308 case it offered absolutely nothing in 6.5 that wasn't already available. Same with the 7-08. Neither is one bit better than the 6.5 X 55 or the 7 X 57...and a half dozen other cartridges in the same calibers. As far as I'm concerned the "short action vs. long action" argument is meaningless and is no more than the same splitting of hairs as occurs among cartridges. As Paul mentioned the "Triple Deuce" Remington is being annihilated by the 223 and I think that's a shame...and no doubt due to my prejudice for the 222. The 223 is a great cartridge and anyone who thinks it isn't is...well, just not observant. I just like the 222 better, kinda like the 9.3 X 74R.

I think they RUM's and WSSM's are going to be short lived. They're good and effective cartridges, no doubt, but I think just a bit too much of a gimmick of marketing than really offering something of substance. Ahh...marketing. According to "marketing" something has to be "new and improved". Truth really be told regarding cartridges the only improvements of any significance in the last 100 years has been in propellants and projectiles. The best cartridge designs were on board before WWI..and there has been precious little real improvement in projectiles. Except for dangerous game no bullet has really improved on the cast bullet as far as actual killing effectiveness. Obviously with the gains in velocity with nitro cellulose powders some means of protecting a lead core had to be invented, thus the jacket. With the advent of the jacket the effectiveness of the cast bullet was compromised. It don't take no $4.00 bullet to kill a whitetail, elk, moose or boar. Millions were killed before anyone ever thought to put a jacket on a lead bullet.

Last edited on Tue Dec 27th, 2016 12:13 PM by 9.3X75R



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 12:11 PM
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roysclockgun
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Talk about cartridges that never caught on:

I have long enjoyed owning and shooting single shot rifles. For years the only thing I carried for all my deer hunting, east and west, was a Browning B78 in 7mmRemMag. I still regret swapping it, but I wanted the Stalker in 280Rem and I am very happy with that as an all around hunting rifle/cartridge combo.

A number of years ago, I began reading about E. Arthur Brown firearms and got crazy and bought the little single shot rifle in 6mm Bench Rest Magnum. To load that ammo, one must start with 30-30 cases and resize to 7-30Waters, then resize again, using the E. Brown die for 6mm BRM. Then fire form cases.

The rifle shoots very sweet and I have often thought of using it on deer, but never have.

I realize that the 6mm BRM will never be sold at Walmart and save for ammo sold by E. Brown, one will always have to hand load.

It seems that most of us enjoy chasing some esoteric cartridge, if only for our own satisfaction.

Steven



 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 12:17 PM
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9.3X75R
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Steven, I believe your last sentence sums it up better than anything else. I praised the 8 X 57 but don't own one. My 8mm is an 8 X 56 Mannlicher/Schoenauer. Go figger....lol!!



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 12:35 PM
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Crockett
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For what is worth I have a 303 Savage from 1903. The bore slugs at .311. If I load it with .308 bullets they will tumble every time. If I load it with .311 it shoots fine. I have box of bullets from Remington that mike at .311 labeled 303 for Savage rifles. See the Pic if it attaches ok. I read an article a few years ago, don't recall which magazine it was in, that made sense of the 303 confusion. It stated that Savage used the .311 bore diameter for the first few years then changed to .308. It also said that Winchester loaded their ammo with .308 bullets from the beginning. Savage and one other company used .311 bullets in their ammo until Savage got smart and changed to the .308 bore diameter. I don't wonder this caliber is so confusing.

Attachment: IMG_1173.JPG (Downloaded 99 times)



 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 12:41 PM
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Paul Tummers



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9.3X75R wrote:
Steven, I believe your last sentence sums it up better than anything else. I praised the 8 X 57 but don't own one. My 8mm is an 8 X 56 Mannlicher/Schoenauer. Go figger....lol!!

I assume, you will shoot cast bullets in that one, because the bore diameter is a true 8mm, not 8.13mm like the 8x57JS?

I also have the feeling, the Hornets will stay with us for a long time to come, over here they are used very much in competition "Jagdmatch" becuase of their accuracy, low powder costs and the absence of recoil.



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 01:56 PM
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roysclockgun
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The 223Rem/5.56x45mm NATO pretty much killed off the 222 and probably pushed the final days that we saw of ammo and rifles being readily available in 22Hornet and some other center fire 22 cartridges
.
Gene Stoner at some point in the development of the AR15/M16 was using the 222Rem., but the US Gov'mt. in it's wisdom wanted a brand new cartridge, so Rem. developed 223RemMag as fodder for the M16 and later the 223Rem. and it was adopted.

Of course, they ignored using the Stoner recommended propellant and bought propellant from the lowest bidder. The cheaper propellant fired dirty and the then new M16 seized up. The early models did not have a "forward assist" on the bolt, so troops died in Vietnam and the M16 got and unfair rap for being unreliable.

Secondly, the troops already in Vietnam, were issued M16s with no instruction manuals and were led to believe, in too many cases, that the new rifle needed no maintenance. Give an 18 year old troop a new rifle, telling him that he did not have to maintain it and he will fire it until it quits.

I agree, the 223Rem cartridge will last more than through the next 100 years. I am still shooting cartridges out of cases of Israeli surplus and Malaysian surplus 223Rem that then cost ten cents a round. All FMJ but great range ammo for use on killing reams of paper.

Steven



 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 02:03 PM
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RaySendero
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Ok- I'll play, too:

1) Older/Established rifle cartridges that will stand the test of time in abundance:
223, 270W, 308, 30-06, 375HH, 7.62x39, 8x57 and 9.3x62

Believe these will still be around in 100 years barring some unforeseen development in caseless electromagnetic rifle technology.



2) Newer/Latest rifle cartridges that could gain the status of those in 1) above:
My crystal ball is drawing a blank do to the word "abundance".

Here, I'm guessing you have to look to the world's military. If several were to adopt say the 338 Lapua or one of the 6.5s maybe?! .....Nah...Not even then!



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 03:26 PM
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drysonly
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30-06
270 Win
300 Weatherby
30-30
7-08
308 Win



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 Posted: Tue Dec 27th, 2016 06:50 PM
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9.3X75R
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Paul interesting you would mention cast bullets and the 8 X 56 in my 1908. Less than an hour ago I finished up chronographing the cast loads I had worked up and that shot with accuracy. The bullet is 197 gr. of 50/50, lead/lino, gas checked nose dia. is .311 and the driving bands .327 over 15 or 16 grs. of Unique with a foam filler. I'm waffling on the powder charge as one shoots as good as the other. There is an average of 60 fps difference between them. The groove dia. on this rifle is .324-.3245 thus the .327 cast bullet. Sub 1 inch groups at 50 yards, open sights, benched and bagged. 170 gr. jacketed Hornady Rn do just as good if not a shade better.

There, now that I've pirated the thread I apologize...:sofa: Back to this fascinating question.



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 Posted: Sun Jan 1st, 2017 09:43 PM
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MissouriTrapp3r
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I'm going to list the top 10 I think will stay and then some of the others. just because I cant pick 6. lol
in no particular order:
1. 308win
2: 270
3: 30-30
4: 223
5: 7mm rem mag
6: 338 lapua.

a few more that I believe will last, 22-250, 300win mag, 30-06 (although I'm not sure why because the 308 is USUALLY notice I said USUALLY only about 100fps slower which really doesn't change a whole lot if anything. but I do believe that is is an amazing round, as is the 308. the 243, 6.5creedmore and gendel seem to have one good following and I can see them lasting a long time. as far as newest, I think the 300backout will do will. I'm not a personal fan of the round but I can see why some people are. it cam out at a good time.

rounds that will disappear, all the WSM calibers, I don't think any of the " Nosler" cartridges will last. as stated by another member, I don't think the 280 will last, the 25-45 sharps will be obsolete. 300 weatherby mag, 7mm weatherby mag. I think these are both great but I'm not sure they will survive because they are so expensive to shoot compared to the standard 7mm and 300 mags. just my opinion. I'm not up on a lot of the new or older cartridges, I know most of the "Standard" calibers. but that is what I think will happen



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 Posted: Sun Jan 1st, 2017 11:19 PM
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Ozark Ed



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To consider this question I believe you have to ignore the reloading world. Have to look at factory ammo only. I pretty much agree with the consensus. 308, 223, 30-06, and 270 are here to stay. The fifth place vote for me is the 243 or 7mm rem magnum. The 30-30 survived the transition from black powder to smokeless and the sheer number of guns in existence gives it a likely survival. I do, however, think it will diminish. The ballistics just aren't that good when compared to the 5 in my list. Even the 7.62 x 39 can offer equal ballistics to the venerable 30-30.

I'm not as sure the wsm family will become extinct, but I might be biased since I own one.

Anecdotally, I talked to a guy who has a 25 wssm and he has been unable to find ammo. I don't remember which company he had talked to but he was told they hadn't manufactured any factory ammo for two years.

I guess we'll find out over the next 10 to 20 years.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 2nd, 2017 07:02 AM
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Josh Smith
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Stay:

1. 30-06
2. .308/7.62x51mm
3. .223 and/or 5.56
4. 7.62x54r
5. 7.62x39
6. 5.45x39

I'm not 100% sure of that last.

For those that disappear, just choose any six that have been recently introduced. I figure they have as good a chance at surviving or dying out as the next.

Regards,

Josh



 Posted: Mon Jan 2nd, 2017 07:36 AM
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BigDog58
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I'm fairly sure the 50 BMG will be around for a long time :wink:



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