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Case Head Separation Question
 Moderated by: Slingshot, Rockydog, klallen, DesertMarine, -6 Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   
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 Posted: Thu Feb 23rd, 2017 08:04 AM
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HighBC
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I've never tried the O ring thing myself, but it sound interesting, might try it some time.

When I fire form I like to seat my bullets so they jam pretty hard into the lands, this keeps the case head snugly positioned against the bolt face, thus preventing the firing pin from driving the case forward. But not all chambers make this possible, but if your rifle will cooperate it's another option to get those shoulders fully blown forward on the first load, thus reducing repeated stretching.

I use a mid table charge of a slow burner for application, don't want to use anything fast burning or pressure could get out of hand.

HBC



 Posted: Thu Mar 2nd, 2017 09:15 PM
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cjmcnix
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Thanks everyone for the help! I haven't been to the range yet (still waiting on orthodontic bands), but I just took delivery of a fresh batch of .303 British brass.

I experimented with the gap on my forming dies and final full length sizer using a feeler gauge and discovered that a gap of .011 gives me a good resistance on a bolt closing (.012 required a bit of effort to close the bolt, but it did close)

Question; when setting up my file trim die, I would always bottom it out on the shell holder. If I do the same now, will I end up bumping my shoulders back? I feel some resistance when I bring the ram up on my new "perfect" brass, and I don't want to mess it up accidentally.

Last edited on Thu Mar 2nd, 2017 09:16 PM by cjmcnix



 Posted: Fri Mar 3rd, 2017 12:38 AM
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Rockydog



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I would set the trim die with the .011 or .012 gap as well. If you have pushed the case back into the bolt head with a .011 gap on the sizer, the case mouth trimmed with a zero gap will be set back .011 in the chamber, Setting it with the gap of .011 will avoid any chance of setting the shoulder back and will keep the case mouth in it's intended place in the chamber. RD



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Light hunting rifles; Gravity is permanent, recoil is temporary.Your Choice


 Posted: Fri Mar 3rd, 2017 04:59 AM
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bigedp51
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I collected the Enfield rifle and at maximum military headspace you can can have .016 head clearance or "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face. And this distance is how much the case will stretch and thin when fired.

 

The rubber o-ring serves two purposes, it holds the case against the bolt face, and when compressed centers the case in the rear of the chamber.

Below after the case has been fire formed to the chamber the case will headspace off the shoulder and "NOT" the rim and will not stretch.


Below I use 100 grain .312 pistol bullets with reduced loads to fire form my .303 British cases using the o-ring method.





Forget any type of rubber band, the round o-ring centers the case when compressed and helps keep the case centered with the bore.

Also Prvi Partizan .303 cases have thicker rims, a larger base diameter and much thicker case walls than any other modern day .303 case.



 Posted: Fri Mar 3rd, 2017 01:33 PM
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cjmcnix
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bigedp51 wrote: Forget any type of rubber band, the round o-ring centers the case when compressed and helps keep the case centered with the bore.

Also Prvi Partizan .303 cases have thicker rims, a larger base diameter and much thicker case walls than any other modern day .303 case.

That is a great visual representation!

What size o-ring do you use? I don't have any selection laying around in my garage, and I'm not sure what thickness or inner/outer diameter would be suitable.

I've heard of the Partizan brass during my early research, but hearing about a larger rim scared me off... my extractor is 101 years old and I'm trying to keep it safe! I do have to admit that I have never actually tried the Partizan, nor do I have accurate measurements. If I ever come across a single piece of brass, I'll give it a go.

I've been using 160g Hornady .264 round nose bullets as those were as close to the original I could find...


 

Attachment: dutch.jpg (Downloaded 34 times)



 Posted: Fri Mar 3rd, 2017 02:10 PM
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olyeller
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Great graphics bigedp51!:thumbs::thumbs:

Where did you get them? Many of us here have tried to explain this verbally, but your graphic simply and completely nails it.

Start a thread named "rimless headspace cure", include those graphics, and let's see if a Mod can make a sticky out of it.:wink:



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 Posted: Fri Mar 3rd, 2017 03:36 PM
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bigedp51
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HighBC wrote: I've never tried the O ring thing myself, but it sound interesting, might try it some time.

When I fire form I like to seat my bullets so they jam pretty hard into the lands, this keeps the case head snugly positioned against the bolt face, thus preventing the firing pin from driving the case forward. But not all chambers make this possible, but if your rifle will cooperate it's another option to get those shoulders fully blown forward on the first load, thus reducing repeated stretching.

I use a mid table charge of a slow burner for application, don't want to use anything fast burning or pressure could get out of hand.

HBC

The .303 British ammunition was loaded with cordite powder that had more nitroglycerin than many pistol powders have today. The cordite powder burned "HOT" and caused throat erosion. Meaning in a used Enfield rifle there will not be any rifling to push the bullet into so forget jamming into the lands.



 Posted: Fri Mar 3rd, 2017 03:47 PM
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bigedp51
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cjmcnix wrote:
That is a great visual representation!

What size o-ring do you use? I don't have any selection laying around in my garage, and I'm not sure what thickness or inner/outer diameter would be suitable.

I've heard of the Partizan brass during my early research, but hearing about a larger rim scared me off... my extractor is 101 years old and I'm trying to keep it safe! I do have to admit that I have never actually tried the Partizan, nor do I have accurate measurements. If I ever come across a single piece of brass, I'll give it a go.

I've been using 160g Hornady .264 round nose bullets as those were as close to the original I could find...


 
 

American made cases have a average rim thickness of .058-.059 and the Prvi Partizan cases average .063 and max rim thickness is .064. Meaning the Prvi Partizan cases make your headspace tighter and these cases are made more like military cases. (heavy duty)

Below both cases were fired in my No.4 Enfield rifle, as you can see the thicker rim, larger base diameter and .010 thicker in the base web area are what make the Prvi Partizan the best brass to buy.



O-rings, find the smallest size/diameter that will fit over the case. And when using the o-rings make sure you grease the rear of your locking lugs to prevent wear.

In 1914 the Enfield chambers were reamed larger in diameter and longer to the shoulder location. This was due to poorly made ammunition and the muddy conditions of trench warfare. So some No.1 Enfields may have very over sized chambers that can really stretch and warp cases. Also American SAAMI resizing dies are much smaller than military chambers so neck sizing will make your cases last "much" longer.

Last edited on Fri Mar 3rd, 2017 04:04 PM by bigedp51



 Posted: Sat Mar 4th, 2017 01:33 AM
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Rockydog



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biged, Thank You for the great graphics and commentary! These illustrate perfectly what I've tried to articulate here.

Instead of firing bullets with the O-ring cases I have used the "Cream of Wheat" method. I load a primed case with 7-8 grains of shotgun powder. A mid range powder like 700X, Hodgden Clays, Red Dot etc. works well. Over the powder I tamp 1/4 of a square sheet of toilet paper using a wooden dowel that just slips into the case neck. Then I add Cream of Wheat or corn meal to the base of the neck and firmly tamp another 1/4 sheet of TP into the neck of the case to keep the COW in. I take these outside and shoot them to fireform the cases. They make a nice tight shoulder fit that can be loaded with regular loads. Firing a full level load eventually sharpens the shoulder corners etc, RD



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 Posted: Mon Mar 6th, 2017 03:49 PM
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cjmcnix
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One more question...

During my experimentation, I discovered that if I used my second form die to trim off the the extra brass at the neck, instead of a final file trim die, I end up with a neck just long enough to barely chamber.

Since this longer neck is pushing the brass back against the bolt face, can this be used as another method to force the brass to stretch through the shoulder instead of the head?



 Posted: Mon Mar 6th, 2017 06:54 PM
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HighBC
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cjmcnix wrote:
One more question...

During my experimentation, I discovered that if I used my second form die to trim off the the extra brass at the neck, instead of a final file trim die, I end up with a neck just long enough to barely chamber.

Since this longer neck is pushing the brass back against the bolt face, can this be used as another method to force the brass to stretch through the shoulder instead of the head?


I don't think this is a good or safe idea.

Here's why. Trim specs for bottle neck brass are based on where the throat narrows or the proximity of land engagement. So by using brass that exceeds trim too length, the necessary expansion relief at the mouth of the case will be significantly diminished, and based on what you've described probably as tight or tighter than .000". This is the reason why bottle neck brass has a maximum length at which time trimming becomes necessary. In effect you would be constricting the case mouth from expanding, if extreme enough one would be turning their chamber into a hand grenade.

HBC



 Posted: Tue Mar 7th, 2017 05:40 PM
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cjmcnix
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Good point. I pulled the bullets on those 10 test rounds and trimmed the necks down to a little below spec.

I was never good at math, and I need all 10 fingers to help me count.



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