The Handloaders Bench Home
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register
The Handloaders Bench > Gun Smithing > Smithing > Headspace in Savage 340 30-30

Welcome to HandloadersBench.com. You will receive a activation email with a link in it to activate your account. If you don't receive the email check your spam or junk folders. Email servers look at our email as spam. Our mission here is to provide a place for those interested in the hobby of Reloading Ammunition. We offer a series of forums where they can ask questions, share answers, and highlight successes & failures so that others can learn. If you join our site please be aware that front porch rules apply. If you wouldn't say it on your front porch with grandma, your pastor and your 12 year old niece present it doesn't belong here. The Golden Rule applies. If you can live within those guidelines, Welcome Aboard! Spammers, trolls, and flamers will not last long here, your time would be better spent looking for a board where those traits are acceptable. HB Administration

Headspace in Savage 340 30-30
 Moderated by: Poacher, DesertMarine
 New Topic   Reply   Printer Friendly 
 Rate Topic 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Sun Jan 22nd, 2017 01:17 AM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
1st Post
olyeller
Master Handloader


Joined: Sun Nov 22nd, 2009
Location: Just West Of Bruzdenbleedin, Texas USA
Posts: 4086
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: 270Win ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

The Savage 340 I have in 30-30 seems to have a problem. I had a case separation about 3 years ago I chalked up to over-worked brass.

Now I notice all primers after firing are proud of the case about .004". I've not noticed this before, but after doing some digging I found some old handloads that were shot about 5 years ago, and they are the same as one I fired today.

After noticing this, I resized a fired case with the die backed off the shellholder about 1/8" and loaded it with IMR4895 and a Lyman 311291 just seated to fully engage the lands, reaching final seat at bolt closing. Then I shot it, thinking that should fireform the case to the chamber.

Stinking primer is still proud after that, and I could measure no change in shoulder to rim dimension.

I can slide a case in the chamber with the bolt and magazine out and fully seat the case in the chamber by finger until the rim touches the chamber. If I insert the bolt and close it, the case is pulled back by the extractor so I can actually see a bit of the case wall just ahead of the rim. I have no easy way to measure that, but would guess it is really close to the .004" the primers stand proud after shooting.

I'm thinking the firing pin is pushing the case into the chamber and the case is sticking to the chamber wall after ignition, allowing the primer to back out.

I'm baffled; the gun doesn't look like it's had the barrel off. Sights are still properly indexed and no way the barrel is a full turn unscrewed. Only thing I can think is someone changed the bolt before I bought it and I have a headspace problem.

Does anyone know how much clearance there is supposed to be between bolt face and rim in the Savage 340? Does any of this sound right or wrong to any of you?



____________________
"Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui”

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
He who knows not and knows he knows not is wise.


 Posted: Sun Jan 22nd, 2017 02:05 AM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
2nd Post
Rockydog



Joined: Tue Jul 26th, 2005
Location: 160 Miles SW Of The Frozen Tundra, Wisconsin USA
Posts: 15202
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: 8mm Mauser
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Can't answer your question but can take a stab at fixing your headspace issue. The first solution only works for RIMMED cases. The second solution works for any case.

1: Go to a local orthodontist who sells rubber bands for corrective braces. You might have to look at several sizes to determine which ones will work. The rubber band will need to fit snuggly over the base of the case just ahead of the rim. Load your rounds as normal and slip a rubber band over each case and roll it down to the base. You'll have to push fairly hard to get the bolt to close on the round, as the rubber band will hold the case back against the bolt face. Fire the round and the shoulder will move forward the correct amount. This will fix your problem with no smithing expense.

After that just neck size the rounds or back your FL die out so that it sits right at the correct shoulder height. The goal here is to headspace these cases on the shoulder rather than the rim.

You might check with kotahdog as he used this technique to make custom cases for a Contender. He might know what band size will fit 30-30 cases as he bought a few different sizes for trial and error.

2: Run new cases (or cases once fired in a properly headspaced gun) up into an 8mm or even better a .38 special, 9mm, .35 Remington or, .35 Whelen die. Run these in just far enough to resize the neck to .323 or .358. Then back your 30-30 die out about .020 from the shell holder and FL size a case with the expanded neck. This will create a false shoulder ahead of the current shoulder. At this point the case should not fit. If it does then get another expanded case and back the 30-30 die out sime more. If it won't fit turn the die in very slightly and try again until it just barely closes. Then lock your die down.

When these cases are fired they will blow the shoulder forward to the point that your headspace problem will be gone. I routinely use this method to make brass for at least two wildcats.

In using either method there is one more step. Once you have the die set measure the distance between the shell holder and the bottom of the die with a feeler gauge set. In the cover of the die box write down that measurement! Also dedicate that shellholder to that die as shellholders will vary in thickness.

Sounds like a lot of work but once you get it figured out it's a piece of cake. Custom reloading at it's best. RD

PS: If all else fails shoot me a price for the 340 I've always wanted one. :sofa:



____________________
“Those that beat their rifles into plow shares will plow for those who didn’t”. Jefferson

Light hunting rifles; Gravity is permanent, recoil is temporary.Your Choice


 Posted: Sun Jan 22nd, 2017 03:01 AM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
3rd Post
olyeller
Master Handloader


Joined: Sun Nov 22nd, 2009
Location: Just West Of Bruzdenbleedin, Texas USA
Posts: 4086
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: 270Win ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Thanks RD. I've seen your rubber band trick before. Wish I had remembered it sooner, I'd have tried it instead of the jammed bullet :rolleyes:
I'll either have to form some cases with that trick and neck size, or remove the sights and screw the barrel in a smidge to tighten up the headspace.

Believe I'll start with the band and see just how much the shoulder blows out. I used a 38SPL case over the 30-30 neck resting on the shoulder and measured that to see how much the shoulder moved. Didn't get any change. Maybe the band will keep it tight against the boltface this time.

I shot my first deer with a 340 chambered in 30-30, so this gun is Memory Lane.:thumbs:

Really is handy to carry and use in brush or a stand. 22" barrel and short action make it sweet.



____________________
"Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui”

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
He who knows not and knows he knows not is wise.


 Posted: Sun Jan 22nd, 2017 05:29 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
4th Post
BEAR
Senior Member
 

Joined: Mon Oct 12th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 5280
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: 260 ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Got a few 340s in 330-30. nice little rifle; but too weak to hotrod.
I used them to teach my son and nephews to hunt. they killed a lot of deer with them.

I suspect someone did accidentally swapped bolts.

You could also put a false shoulder on the cas by using an 8mm expander to open the case mouth/neck to oversized, then neck size only enough to get the case to fit the chamber with the bolt tightly closing. Fire and then your case body will be held against the chamber/bolt head and, afterwards just neck size.

I found these to be a very nice with 130 gr pointed bullets.



 Posted: Sun Jan 22nd, 2017 05:55 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
5th Post
Charley



Joined: Fri Sep 9th, 2005
Location: San Antonio, Texas USA
Posts: 15659
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: all of them
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

I think Bear's suggestion would be easier. As for the cause, it could be somebody REALLY hot-rodded a handload, and setback the locking lug, or the swapped bolt idea.



____________________
"The fact that guns can kill another human being is the whole point. That's why they are so darn good at deterring violent criminals". Ann Coulter


 Posted: Sun Jan 22nd, 2017 08:57 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
6th Post
olyeller
Master Handloader


Joined: Sun Nov 22nd, 2009
Location: Just West Of Bruzdenbleedin, Texas USA
Posts: 4086
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: 270Win ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Well, here's what I've come up with. I took a fired case, measured the rim thickness (0.058"), then decapped it. Measured the overall case length and wrote it down.

I then seated a spent primer about 2/3 into the pocket, inserted it into the chamber and closed the bolt on it, completing the primer seating. I then measured the overall case length including the primer protrusion, then subtracted the first measurement which amounted to 0.006" difference.

0.058+0.006=0.064" total headspace.

SAAMI spec calls for 0.063"-0.070", so I guess I'm near minimum HS.

I just have never noticed primer protrusion like this before, but comparing some 38SPL fired cases I see it there too, amounts of 2-4 thousandths. Maybe too used to rimless cartridges over 40Kpsi:rolleyes:

Thanks to all who responded about this and helped me think it through.




____________________
"Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui”

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
He who knows not and knows he knows not is wise.


 Posted: Sun Jan 22nd, 2017 11:48 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
7th Post
BEAR
Senior Member
 

Joined: Mon Oct 12th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 5280
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: 260 ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Was worried that you had case separation.

Could be you FL sizing die is a little on the short size? Maybe a thin shell holder?



 Posted: Sun Jan 22nd, 2017 11:57 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
8th Post
Snuffy
Senior Member


Joined: Sun Dec 16th, 2012
Location: Arkansas USA
Posts: 1397
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: 30-06
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Got another 30-30 you could fire that ammo in and compare it?



____________________
Not as Lean, Not as Mean, but still a Marine!

If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. -- Thomas Paine




 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 04:13 AM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
9th Post
olyeller
Master Handloader


Joined: Sun Nov 22nd, 2009
Location: Just West Of Bruzdenbleedin, Texas USA
Posts: 4086
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: 270Win ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Bear, I did have one separation a couple of years ago. I am minimum sizing; have the die about 0.10 off the shell holder.

Snuffy, I'm gonna find someone with another 30-30 and see.

Also gonna bring it to Breckenridge for kicks.


ETA: gonna expand a case neck and create a false shoulder and see what happens

Last edited on Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 04:15 AM by olyeller



____________________
"Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui”

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
He who knows not and knows he knows not is wise.


 Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2017 12:53 AM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
10th Post
olyeller
Master Handloader


Joined: Sun Nov 22nd, 2009
Location: Just West Of Bruzdenbleedin, Texas USA
Posts: 4086
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: 270Win ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Okay, so I tried expanding the neck to create a false shoulder. All I had was a 357 expander die and it was about 0.15 short to do the job.

I wound up seating a 150gr RN jacketed bullet real long and by closing the bolt on it I jammed it into the lands. That did the trick.

Before loading, I stuck a 357 case over the neck of the 30-30 case and measured the combo. This would allow me to see how far the shoulder moves. I only sized the neck before loading. After firing, I measured all again.

This time, with the bullet jammed, there was no primer protrusion; it was flat with the cartridge base. The shoulder moved 0.005" forward, and fits the chamber nicely, at least it feels like it. This coincides with what I've been seeing in primer protrusion, allowing the case to shrink a thou or so after firing.

So I believe the factory loads and my handloads stick to the chamber walls and let the primer stick out. Do you agree or disagree with that?

1) Could it be the pressures are such the case doesn't permanently deform and stretch to the bolt face? I would think after a few cycles I would be seeing incipient case head separation, but really am not seeing it yet.
2) Do you think I should fireform cases with jammed bullets or RD's rubber band method, or do you think it is a waste of time?
3) Should I just shut the hell up, quit worrying over a non-problem, and go shoot some hogs with it and tell you all about that?:sofa:

olyeller



____________________
"Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui”

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
He who knows not and knows he knows not is wise.


 Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2017 08:09 AM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
11th Post
BEAR
Senior Member
 

Joined: Mon Oct 12th, 2009
Location:  
Posts: 5280
Photo: 
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: I load everything!
My favorite chambering is:: 260 ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

Since you reload, I'd fix the problem. Jam 50 cartridges with medium pressure loads, and shoot them at hogs.



 Posted: Thu Feb 9th, 2017 06:51 PM
   PM  Quote  Reply 
12th Post
olyeller
Master Handloader


Joined: Sun Nov 22nd, 2009
Location: Just West Of Bruzdenbleedin, Texas USA
Posts: 4086
Photo: [Download]
Are you a handloader?: Yes
Favorite type of cartridge to load?: rifle
My favorite chambering is:: 270Win ...
Status: 
Offline

  back to top

BEAR wrote: Since you reload, I'd fix the problem. Jam 50 cartridges with medium pressure loads, and shoot them at hogs.
Did about 30 including 20 of Hornady's All American line of factory ammo once fired. After jamming boolits, they grew about .006 at the shoulder.



____________________
"Wimachtendienk, Wingolauchsik, Witahemui”

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.
He who knows not and knows he knows not is wise.


 Current time is 07:13 AM
The Handloaders Bench > Gun Smithing > Smithing > Headspace in Savage 340 30-30
Top




UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.1684 seconds (11% database + 89% PHP). 28 queries executed.