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Loading 41Mag Problems? need some help !
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 Posted: Sat Mar 18th, 2017 11:14 PM
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RandyHK91
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  I have loaded a boatload of 44 mag and figured the 41 would be just a piece of cake  Like its big Brother .
S+W 57 41 mag

210 gr bullets from Nosler--Hornady and 200 Gr Reminton

  POWDER=296
  Lets start with the loading manuals ==Data all over the place from 15.2 all the way to 21.5  average is 18.3-19.5 some max loads say compressed 110% loads.

NEW  R-P Cases   CCI LMP primers

I picked a start load of 18.5gr and loaded up 6 for testing  4 fired fine with no pressure signs at all 5 was a click No6 went bang =Open her up and looks like a lite strike on the primer No 6 has a flattish primer [Hum} recycle no 5 and Blam it fires with a VERY Flat primer.

OK Dum dum somehow messed the charging process--lets do this again and hand weigh every one ! all of them dumped dead on from the Uniflow ! Of these I get 2 flat primers and 4 good ones ..I did not mess up charge weights !

So Im thinking -LOW Charge weight is causing inconsistent ignition so I up the charge to 19Gr still the same only more flattening >? Now Im stumped !![accuracy load is supposed to be 19.9gr]

 I re-seated all the Primers in the cases thinking I might not have then totally bottomed out ,,HUmmm some did seem like they squished in a few thou more?

 So Change over to 4227 IMR 15 Gr and get the same results!!  Darn  !!using both mag  and std primers  both.. Bullets have a good solid crimp too BTW!!

Now Im wondering Are CCI Primers noted for being softer and flattening more easily?? This is what Im thinking >>??

I seriously think the darn thing would totally explode with a MAX Charge stuffed in it --OH Yes scales are spot on too!!! Bullets seated to crimp  groove about 20 thou. short.

I gave the area under the hammer fall a real cleaning with a small brush and spray can degreaser and oiled everything up Possibly a Bit of unburned Powder was keeping the hammer from a good strike>??

ALL Cases fall from the cylinder freely NO Cratering around the firing pin strike !!

  OK all is lost lets try H-110 [I Know its the same thing] 18.5gr  mag primers and shoot off the bags --KA-BLAMO ONE FIREBALL AND BIG KICK ,,Yep this stuff says No wimps Allowed  [Smiles]   all the primers show some flattening But at least uniformly.. I dont have any other brand of primers to try,,, cases fall freely out !


 A Brain teaser for you Grab a Rum and Coke and hash this one out !!!

Thanks in advance Randy !!  Ill ask questions all day before I wreck My Nice Mdl 57 and hurt myself !!!
 



 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 04:01 AM
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Mortis
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I've never had a problem with any of my 57's or 657.

Question.... which generation or dash model of the 57 are you shooting?

Also... I've always used 2400 as my go to powder for the 41 Mag and my 10inch Contender enjoys it.



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 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 06:23 AM
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runfiverun
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2400 here too under the Hornady 210 XTP.
I would try federal not magnum primers with your H-110 next go round.



 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 10:38 AM
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RandyHK91
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I realize My posting abilities are a bit lacking on this one :sofa: But Thanks for bearing with me ,!

Its an Older pinned and recessed cylinder N-834557 sn Its like new ,,,I took it in trade when I did gun show sales years ago..

Today I will try AA-9 and 2400.But I did notice some difference yesterday with H-110 over the 296 [Yes I know they are supposed to be the same thing perchance a different lot??] I only ran 6 H-110 rounds through it so far. H-110 is my powder of choice for my Ruger Redhawk and Mdl 29 8 3/8ths S+W Im loading hunting ammo this go around..

My Limited Abilities are asking this --DO Low Charges on 296 produce odd pressure curves Thats what Im guessing , is 19Gr that Low as to cause problems >?,

Are CCI Primers Prone to Flattening Over say other brands>?



, I have 100 MAG primed cases to use up If I cant get H-110 to work well Then Ill use nothing But AA-9 Or 2400 =4227 is supposed to be a good one too ?.


Runfiverrun ==Why do you suggest Std primers with the H-110?

I have shot this gun little ..I had some factory ammo and it shot fine But totally Inaccurate ,,So I picked up some ammo from a Boutique Ammo Loader /re manufacture at a gun show he said they were"WARM"and Wooaaa! Now they all went in the black and bulls- eye so it will shoot !!

It all part of this handloading hobby .. Randy



 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 12:41 PM
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Rockydog



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Randy, Don't need a Rum and Coke for this one. For many years there was a warning on the Hodgdon website that basically said: WARNING DO NOT REDUCE H110 and W296 below the starting data listed on this (Hodgdon) website.

When I went to look for the warning today it was nowhere to be found.

I would not reduce these powders below that data. Both powders call for 19.8 grains minimum and 22 Grains Max for the .41 Remington Magnum using 210 Grain bullets.

These two powders, basically the same powder, can act very erratically when underloaded, as you have discovered. Because it takes high pressures to light these powders they are not burning evenly when undercharged. You may see loud flashes and hear a loud bang because some of the powder is not even lit when it exits the barrel. You also can actually push the bullet out of the case and into the forcing cone before the powder fully ignites. At this point the bullet acts like a barrel obstruction and pressures will rise drastically.

Try raising it up to the minimum and I'd bet your problems disappear. RD



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 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 02:28 PM
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RandyHK91
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You also can actually push the bullet out of the case and into the forcing cone before the powder fully ignites. At this point the bullet acts like a barrel obstruction and pressures will rise drastically.

Try raising it up to the minimum and I'd bet your problems disappear. RD


Im Betting your right ==- here is where I "Think" I was led astray =Hornady's Manual calls for 15.2 -To- 19.5 gr 296 3rd edition,,,they also list one load for the H=110 18.4 gr 210 bullet... Sierra calls for 18.2 = 20.3gr
I was hesitant to start near the top of one books recommendation... I suspected what you said about low charge and Now I do think What you said about shoving the bullet into the forcing cone then lighting off resulting in a Hi pressure indecent-- You affirmed MY suspicions -Thanks Randy !

Hodgdens manual calls for 19.8 - 22.0 Gr Both 110 and 296

That is a MAJOR difference !! Im Inclined to Go with the Data from the Powder manufacture Now !! Thanks I will let you know how I make out ! I have had excellent results with 23.5-24 Gr 110 in my 44Mag 240gr bullet!


Its Sunday in the valley and Ill hold off on the Artillery barrage until tomorrow during working hrs to not annoy the neighbors who all shoot too ,,One Bennie Of moving out of NY,,



 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 03:36 PM
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Ruffian
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Have to agree with the RD and the 296 & 110 powders with his above post.:thumbs:



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 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 04:01 PM
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Charley



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I don't use W296 or H110 in anything, but have seen the warnings about reducing loads many times. I'm pretty sure Rocky is dead on about this.



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 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 04:39 PM
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RandyHK91
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I agree --I lay In Bad last night thinking about this and I concur that the loading manuals are Not to be trusted MORE SO Than the Powder manufacture ,,

I have the NEW Hodgdon Loading book and I dont find a warning -BUT I looked and found an older hand book that says dont reduce more than 3% That book lists a max load of 21.0 gr so Im going to go with 20.5 That is within the 3% The NEW Book Shows 19.8 to 22.0 Gr So Im in the safe zone here too,, It was the Hornady Book that sent me on the wrong road ! Let you know tomorrow --Thanks Randy !!



 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 06:08 PM
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cylinderman
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I load H110 and I would say all of my loads for everything I use it in are within .5 gr of Max. Very consistent at that level but very stout load. I use standard primers with it and have no issues but that could be because I'm at the top load level.
When you see Big variances in data for same projectile weight it is most likely due to the depth the bullet is seated in case. The Hornady XTP seats exceptionally deep this might explain the lower Max load data.



 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 06:32 PM
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RandyHK91
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I could stand it No Longer so I went to the shop and loaded up 3 rnds 20.5 21.0 and 21.5 all worked as they are supposed to !!! Now to load for the best accuracy ,, You guys were Right the Hornidy book sent me the wrong direction ,,:beer:



 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 08:58 PM
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Randy,Glad things are working out. However, I was thinking about this a bit more and wondered how much crimp you were putting on these rounds. Crimp in powders like this increases pressures just enough to ensure a clean burn. RD



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 Posted: Sun Mar 19th, 2017 11:24 PM
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RandyHK91
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crimped real tight into the groove thanks again guys !! :thumbs:



 Posted: Mon Mar 20th, 2017 11:27 AM
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Ruffian
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crimped real tight is one thing, just as long you are not shaving the brass, my 2 cents worth !



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 Posted: Mon Mar 20th, 2017 01:47 PM
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RandyHK91
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Ruffian wrote: crimped real tight is one thing, just as long you are not shaving the brass, my 2 cents worth !


 Years ago when loading the 44mag  I was "Got" By the crimp problem as in Not enough crimp on 44 mag AA9 powder and had a squib.. 

I learned soon enough about tight crimps and with slow powders.
I have my die set to really squeeze down into the crimp band on the bullet from now on  ,,They look like factory loads..  I can feel them tighten in when I pull the press handle..


Some guys are lucky that they have mentors who teach them ,,,ME- Read every manual 10X and all the reloading stories in the magazines . Learned myself .  Lucky we have the web now for knowledge. Being able to quiz guys like our members here is really valuable.
Rockydog was the one who affirmed my thoughts ,,I was afraid to go big when one book said stay lower ,,,

  I have half a notion to write hornady and ask why they had such low charges listed when Hodgden had 2 gr more....  Even Hodgden went UP One gr in the last book from 21 gr to 22 max..

Thanks again for the help  Randy!!



 Posted: Mon Mar 20th, 2017 05:58 PM
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CajunMOA
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Ditto.

No experience with Win. 296.

For a brace of 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawks:

My business load for .41 Rem Mag was 17.5 grs of 2400.

My plinking load that shot to same POI was 7 grs. of Unique.

I have used 1000's of CCI primers for over 50 yrs, several thousand for .44 and .41 mags specifically, and never experienced the flattening, misfires, or erratic combustion you describe.

Something is clearly amiss. I'd start my reloading process from scratch: prep brass (careful inspection, flash holes, length, sizing, . . . ); primimg equipment, routine, age of primers; . . .


CAUTION: This post discusses loads or load data that may or may not be appropriate for your gun or for the cartridge(s) and components mentioned. Due to typos, variations in guns and components, and the abilities and judgment of users of this data, neither the writer, Handloadersbench.com, nor the staff of Handloadersbench.com assume any liability for damage or injury resulting from using this information. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DUPLICATE THE DESCRIBED LOADS without first working them up from a published safe starting level charge while watching for pressure signs. If you don't know how to do that please don't use this data, for your own safety and the safety of others.

Last edited on Mon Mar 20th, 2017 05:58 PM by CajunMOA



 Posted: Mon Mar 20th, 2017 06:19 PM
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RandyHK91
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Problem fixed CajunMOA
Undercharged Due to following bad data from Hornady loading manual Third edition !



 Posted: Mon Mar 20th, 2017 10:56 PM
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I'm late to this party and see that it looks like you have the problem solved. Will just say I run significantly more, but still in MFG Published range, H110 in .41Mag. with 245-265gr CAST than where you were with 210 Jacketed. Several different Blackhawks, a Marlin and a Henry. No issues. Hodgdon Online Data Center my primary reference for the powders they market, H, IMR or W...
Have thought about trying 2400, just hard to "fix what ain't broke". The buck in my avatar picture fell to the .41 245gr Cast and H110. Hard to argue with that kind of results.
Kevin



 Posted: Tue Mar 21st, 2017 02:06 AM
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trouble
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Looking at 41 magnum load data from both Hornady 9th edition and Nosler.com reveals something interesting.  Win 296 and H110 are generally accepted as being the same powder yet the start loads for the Hornady 210 grain XTP using the two different powders differ by nearly 2 full grains. The Nosler Data is only different by .4 grains which is acceptable.

One has to wonder how Hornady was using what is is essentially the same powder but had to use 19.5 grains of H110 to achieve 1,100 fps and 17.6 gr of Win296 to achieve the same velocity in the same gun.

also interesting that Nosler lists max as 20.9 gr for H110  with their 210 gr projectile and Hornady lists 22.7 gr as their max for their same weight projectile.




 Posted: Tue Mar 21st, 2017 09:54 PM
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Guncrank
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Well, this is what the Hodgdon website has to offer in a 210g projectile... When in doubt or I have wildly conflicting data sources I've found the best recource has been the powder manufacturers data as published at their web pages...

Klink on the "Resources" tab screwool on down to the "Reloading Data Center" then "Agree to the terms-O-use.
Once there pick yer favorite calee'ber and get on with it!
https://www.hodgdon.com/

Attachment: H110-W296.JPG (Downloaded 53 times)



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